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	<title>Comments on: The Real Trojan Threat, Stop Ignoring It</title>
	<link>http://www.justinshattuck.com/2007/01/11/the-real-trojan-threat-stop-ignoring-it/</link>
	<description>mental diuretic</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 15:32:51 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: BilleeD.</title>
		<link>http://www.justinshattuck.com/2007/01/11/the-real-trojan-threat-stop-ignoring-it/#comment-3166</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jan 2007 04:59:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.justinshattuck.com/2007/01/11/the-real-trojan-threat-stop-ignoring-it/#comment-3166</guid>
					<description>Honestly, I think that folks should understand that Justin is simply stating (correct me if I am off here, Justin) that most average web users are oblivious to JavaScript's capabilities and that the browser companies should implement some sort of virtual machine for JavaScript to execute code within for an added security layer other than the built-in JavaScript features (e.g. no direct access to the client file system).

The whole AJAX thing is based on a what I remember being, at first, a proprietary Microsoft extension; &lt;code&gt;XMLHttpRequest()&lt;/code&gt;. This certainly has inherent security issues (e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XMLHttpRequest#Security) that need to be addressed more closely by the browser manufacturers who implemented this extension without first extensively testing it's security implications. Microsoft has always been prone to commit "oopsy!" style programming mistakes (or rather not always seeing things from the "dark side" when necessary) so this would have been where I would have focused my own R&#38;D before adding this new functionality to my browser's code base. I have to agree with GateKeeper's comment regarding "Security by obscurity" in that ignoring things won't make them better. We need to be really aware of the pitfalls any time we do things online; no-brainer.  But we all love how these zippy new sites function; catch-22.

What I feel needs to be discussed is that the average user needs to be made aware of the issues and/or the browser companies need to re-think how we are trying to use their products today. Or...we could all just ask W3C to re-write HTTP as a stateful protocol using encrypted keys. Nah, it would never work, right? ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Honestly, I think that folks should understand that Justin is simply stating (correct me if I am off here, Justin) that most average web users are oblivious to JavaScript&#8217;s capabilities and that the browser companies should implement some sort of virtual machine for JavaScript to execute code within for an added security layer other than the built-in JavaScript features (e.g. no direct access to the client file system).</p>
<p>The whole AJAX thing is based on a what I remember being, at first, a proprietary Microsoft extension; <code>XMLHttpRequest()</code>. This certainly has inherent security issues (e.g. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XMLHttpRequest#Security" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XMLHttpRequest#Security</a>) that need to be addressed more closely by the browser manufacturers who implemented this extension without first extensively testing it&#8217;s security implications. Microsoft has always been prone to commit &#8220;oopsy!&#8221; style programming mistakes (or rather not always seeing things from the &#8220;dark side&#8221; when necessary) so this would have been where I would have focused my own R&amp;D before adding this new functionality to my browser&#8217;s code base. I have to agree with GateKeeper&#8217;s comment regarding &#8220;Security by obscurity&#8221; in that ignoring things won&#8217;t make them better. We need to be really aware of the pitfalls any time we do things online; no-brainer.  But we all love how these zippy new sites function; catch-22.</p>
<p>What I feel needs to be discussed is that the average user needs to be made aware of the issues and/or the browser companies need to re-think how we are trying to use their products today. Or&#8230;we could all just ask W3C to re-write HTTP as a stateful protocol using encrypted keys. Nah, it would never work, right? ;-)
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		<title>by: Sarah Pack</title>
		<link>http://www.justinshattuck.com/2007/01/11/the-real-trojan-threat-stop-ignoring-it/#comment-3090</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Jan 2007 07:53:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.justinshattuck.com/2007/01/11/the-real-trojan-threat-stop-ignoring-it/#comment-3090</guid>
					<description>I'm not sure if this is the right venue for this kind of comment.  If it's not, I apologize.  Last night I sat next to the Sr. Manager of Business Development (or something like that) of Redken on a flight from Dallas to Tulsa.  I, of course, mentioned you, but felt slightly ashamed that I really have no idea what you do other than it is something online and has to do with Loreal, which I knew owned Redken because of the trivia question you asked me at Slainte in New York.  That took longer than it should have.  Sorry.  No one has ever accused me of being concise.

I'm looking for a South American travel partner, for a very short trip in the very near future.  Interested?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure if this is the right venue for this kind of comment.  If it&#8217;s not, I apologize.  Last night I sat next to the Sr. Manager of Business Development (or something like that) of Redken on a flight from Dallas to Tulsa.  I, of course, mentioned you, but felt slightly ashamed that I really have no idea what you do other than it is something online and has to do with Loreal, which I knew owned Redken because of the trivia question you asked me at Slainte in New York.  That took longer than it should have.  Sorry.  No one has ever accused me of being concise.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m looking for a South American travel partner, for a very short trip in the very near future.  Interested?
</p>
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		<title>by: GateKeeper</title>
		<link>http://www.justinshattuck.com/2007/01/11/the-real-trojan-threat-stop-ignoring-it/#comment-3082</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Jan 2007 19:02:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.justinshattuck.com/2007/01/11/the-real-trojan-threat-stop-ignoring-it/#comment-3082</guid>
					<description>Justin is right, y'all. Strange Pants is promoting what security people call "Security by Obscurity" -- "I don't get it, so not many others will either". Be careful. It only takes ONE person to WRITE the code and post it on the 'net for many to find and use it. Don't assume all the people with problem code on their servers were the ones to put it there. At least 50% of all the routers on the 'net still use their default passwords -- probably the same percentage still have NO password on their default computer admin account  -- and you think this is about communism? Dude, wake up. If somebody gets on ANY trusted computer and adds problem code, everybody that visits that site gets violated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Justin is right, y&#8217;all. Strange Pants is promoting what security people call &#8220;Security by Obscurity&#8221; &#8212; &#8220;I don&#8217;t get it, so not many others will either&#8221;. Be careful. It only takes ONE person to WRITE the code and post it on the &#8216;net for many to find and use it. Don&#8217;t assume all the people with problem code on their servers were the ones to put it there. At least 50% of all the routers on the &#8216;net still use their default passwords &#8212; probably the same percentage still have NO password on their default computer admin account  &#8212; and you think this is about communism? Dude, wake up. If somebody gets on ANY trusted computer and adds problem code, everybody that visits that site gets violated.
</p>
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		<title>by: Strange Pants</title>
		<link>http://www.justinshattuck.com/2007/01/11/the-real-trojan-threat-stop-ignoring-it/#comment-3060</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jan 2007 06:29:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.justinshattuck.com/2007/01/11/the-real-trojan-threat-stop-ignoring-it/#comment-3060</guid>
					<description>Is this really about JavaScript? Or about the fact that it's so easily accessible and everyone thinks they can use it?

I doubt most developers would be able to securely handle a DOM in their chosen language (C++, Python, or whatever it might be) without a good dose of training and sensitisation to the issues.

Good web developers learn the parameters of their craft and learn how to handle their tools skilfully. JavaScript is not a trojan, it's the equivalent of a carpenter's electric saw: an indispensable tool in the hands of a professional, but quite capable of amputating careless amateurs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is this really about JavaScript? Or about the fact that it&#8217;s so easily accessible and everyone thinks they can use it?</p>
<p>I doubt most developers would be able to securely handle a DOM in their chosen language (C++, Python, or whatever it might be) without a good dose of training and sensitisation to the issues.</p>
<p>Good web developers learn the parameters of their craft and learn how to handle their tools skilfully. JavaScript is not a trojan, it&#8217;s the equivalent of a carpenter&#8217;s electric saw: an indispensable tool in the hands of a professional, but quite capable of amputating careless amateurs.
</p>
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		<title>by: JavaScript King</title>
		<link>http://www.justinshattuck.com/2007/01/11/the-real-trojan-threat-stop-ignoring-it/#comment-3055</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jan 2007 22:08:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.justinshattuck.com/2007/01/11/the-real-trojan-threat-stop-ignoring-it/#comment-3055</guid>
					<description>You are all doomed! Muhahaha</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are all doomed! Muhahaha
</p>
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		<title>by: jason</title>
		<link>http://www.justinshattuck.com/2007/01/11/the-real-trojan-threat-stop-ignoring-it/#comment-3054</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jan 2007 20:06:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.justinshattuck.com/2007/01/11/the-real-trojan-threat-stop-ignoring-it/#comment-3054</guid>
					<description>I'm with Jimmy -- we're mostly relying on the browsers to protect us from malicious javascript, and there are many standards (already implemented) to help protect a computer from the type of doom you predict.  

Initially Javascript (or Live Script, for us old-timers) was quite innocuous and powerless: "wow, rollover!".  IE 3, and the connection to the Windows OCXs and the like were a wake up call, probably only now dealt with in successful manner with myriad security settings on the browser.  AJAX itself also relies heavily on using making HTTP requests -- loading data, holding state, etc, all necessary for application-like functionality.  The potential for abuse is, in theory, there -- but not readily available, in my mind.  Yes, I've tried.  For research.  Just for research.

The real threats end up being stupid people falling to stupid tricks out of greed -- installing zombie software that promises of free anything that sends data back to a central server, or SPAMs the internet.  And Sony distributing rootkits in the name of DRM and marketing.  So, yeah, stupid corporations, too....hmm.  Maybe we are doomed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m with Jimmy &#8212; we&#8217;re mostly relying on the browsers to protect us from malicious javascript, and there are many standards (already implemented) to help protect a computer from the type of doom you predict.  </p>
<p>Initially Javascript (or Live Script, for us old-timers) was quite innocuous and powerless: &#8220;wow, rollover!&#8221;.  IE 3, and the connection to the Windows OCXs and the like were a wake up call, probably only now dealt with in successful manner with myriad security settings on the browser.  AJAX itself also relies heavily on using making HTTP requests &#8212; loading data, holding state, etc, all necessary for application-like functionality.  The potential for abuse is, in theory, there &#8212; but not readily available, in my mind.  Yes, I&#8217;ve tried.  For research.  Just for research.</p>
<p>The real threats end up being stupid people falling to stupid tricks out of greed &#8212; installing zombie software that promises of free anything that sends data back to a central server, or SPAMs the internet.  And Sony distributing rootkits in the name of DRM and marketing.  So, yeah, stupid corporations, too&#8230;.hmm.  Maybe we are doomed.
</p>
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		<title>by: Justin</title>
		<link>http://www.justinshattuck.com/2007/01/11/the-real-trojan-threat-stop-ignoring-it/#comment-3052</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jan 2007 18:26:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.justinshattuck.com/2007/01/11/the-real-trojan-threat-stop-ignoring-it/#comment-3052</guid>
					<description>@Mavier:  On the same note, should we dissolve all of our armed forces, public servants and protectors of our cities?  I feel as though protecting clients from some of javascripts harms is vital.  I never stated I didn't like javascript.  In fact, I recall stating to embrace it, we have to use it, its bad ass.. no way around it.  But at the same time, I think Aston martin's are totally killer too -- and even they come with seat restraints and air bags...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Mavier:  On the same note, should we dissolve all of our armed forces, public servants and protectors of our cities?  I feel as though protecting clients from some of javascripts harms is vital.  I never stated I didn&#8217;t like javascript.  In fact, I recall stating to embrace it, we have to use it, its bad ass.. no way around it.  But at the same time, I think Aston martin&#8217;s are totally killer too &#8212; and even they come with seat restraints and air bags&#8230;
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		<title>by: mavier</title>
		<link>http://www.justinshattuck.com/2007/01/11/the-real-trojan-threat-stop-ignoring-it/#comment-3051</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jan 2007 18:20:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.justinshattuck.com/2007/01/11/the-real-trojan-threat-stop-ignoring-it/#comment-3051</guid>
					<description>Well, just like with any freedom, there will always be those who abuse it.  So the question is, do we punish everyone because of a few?  Sounds communistic to me.  :-)   To call it a trojan is about as unfair as the people who blame guns solely for deaths.  Nevermind the fact that it takes someone to point and pull the trigger.

Personally, I like javascript and I enjoy the power that it has over browser and form objects, etc.  I've done a lot of projects that just couldn't have been done feasibly without client-side scripting.  I push the limits of it a lot and I'm still impressed with what others are able to do with it.

So my stance on it is, if you're going to surf the web, you're going to run the risk of coming across something you don't want.  So if you're scared of a virus, a naked boob or Nigerian Princes needing your financial help, then log out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, just like with any freedom, there will always be those who abuse it.  So the question is, do we punish everyone because of a few?  Sounds communistic to me.  :-)   To call it a trojan is about as unfair as the people who blame guns solely for deaths.  Nevermind the fact that it takes someone to point and pull the trigger.</p>
<p>Personally, I like javascript and I enjoy the power that it has over browser and form objects, etc.  I&#8217;ve done a lot of projects that just couldn&#8217;t have been done feasibly without client-side scripting.  I push the limits of it a lot and I&#8217;m still impressed with what others are able to do with it.</p>
<p>So my stance on it is, if you&#8217;re going to surf the web, you&#8217;re going to run the risk of coming across something you don&#8217;t want.  So if you&#8217;re scared of a virus, a naked boob or Nigerian Princes needing your financial help, then log out.
</p>
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		<title>by: jimmy</title>
		<link>http://www.justinshattuck.com/2007/01/11/the-real-trojan-threat-stop-ignoring-it/#comment-3050</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jan 2007 17:07:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.justinshattuck.com/2007/01/11/the-real-trojan-threat-stop-ignoring-it/#comment-3050</guid>
					<description>AJAX is not a language.  AJAX is just some fancy buzz word which was created, to describe a method which has been available to javascript for a long time.

Sure, javascript could be looked at as some kind of 'Trojan Horse' or malicious programming language.  One may say to excercise caution when visiting sites that you're really not sure about - but then no one would go anywhere on the web.  Most browsers incorporate security features which do not allow javascript to directly access your machine.  Example - you can not show an image preview to any user who is uploading an image, before they upload it.  This is because (at least in FF) the browser does not allow javascript access to things on the local machine like that.  So, like you would with your anti-virus clients, keep your web browsers up to date to protect yourself from a malicious security hole which exists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>AJAX is not a language.  AJAX is just some fancy buzz word which was created, to describe a method which has been available to javascript for a long time.</p>
<p>Sure, javascript could be looked at as some kind of &#8216;Trojan Horse&#8217; or malicious programming language.  One may say to excercise caution when visiting sites that you&#8217;re really not sure about - but then no one would go anywhere on the web.  Most browsers incorporate security features which do not allow javascript to directly access your machine.  Example - you can not show an image preview to any user who is uploading an image, before they upload it.  This is because (at least in FF) the browser does not allow javascript access to things on the local machine like that.  So, like you would with your anti-virus clients, keep your web browsers up to date to protect yourself from a malicious security hole which exists.
</p>
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		<title>by: Shane</title>
		<link>http://www.justinshattuck.com/2007/01/11/the-real-trojan-threat-stop-ignoring-it/#comment-3049</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jan 2007 17:01:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.justinshattuck.com/2007/01/11/the-real-trojan-threat-stop-ignoring-it/#comment-3049</guid>
					<description>I wouldn't go to quite the depths as you have, however, I do agree that javascript isn't quite as secure as we wish. Not only that, but it hasn't seen a significant update in SEVERAL years. Sadly, it is stuck in the same rut as HTML standards. Even if there was a large update to javascript itself, what forces browser developers to adopt it. If IE can't adopt something as simple as HTML standards, I don't see them accepting a new, more secure, feature-rich javascript for years.

Enough of my rambling, the world is going to come to an end.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wouldn&#8217;t go to quite the depths as you have, however, I do agree that javascript isn&#8217;t quite as secure as we wish. Not only that, but it hasn&#8217;t seen a significant update in SEVERAL years. Sadly, it is stuck in the same rut as HTML standards. Even if there was a large update to javascript itself, what forces browser developers to adopt it. If IE can&#8217;t adopt something as simple as HTML standards, I don&#8217;t see them accepting a new, more secure, feature-rich javascript for years.</p>
<p>Enough of my rambling, the world is going to come to an end.
</p>
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